Create a free Team What is Teams? Learn more. Why is Arwen dying? Ask Question. Asked 8 years, 2 months ago. Active 3 years, 10 months ago. Viewed k times. Improve this question. Community Bot 1. DavRob60 DavRob60 The fact that the movie is not completely identical to the original material is irrelevant. The movie still exist and a question about something that happened only in the movie is still on-topic.
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I think this isn't taken to be literally nor as something that happened off-screen. I always considered this scene in a different way never thought about some sickness, wound or whatever : Arwen insists on staying in Middle-earth to be with Aragorn. As such she won't be able to escape with the other Elves leaving to the West. If Sauron wins which might indeed be the case at that point in the story; the "end" he's referring to , he'll conquer all of Middle-earth, which would also spread his influence anywhere Arwen might go this is the specific evil she won't survive for long.
As such he decides to fight, not so much for Middle-earth as a whole, nor for humankind, but for Arwen, who'd be doomed as well. Improve this answer. Edlothiad Mario Mario The banner is what Elrond's son's deliver. Satanicpuppy, right, it's been a few years since I read RoTK, thanks. See also scifi.
I realise this differs from the book, as it is Glorfindel who rides with Frodo into Rivendell. Of all the changes from the book this one gets at me the most. It takes away an awesome scene just for the sake of getting Liv Tyler's face on the screen more.
Frodo standing up to the wraiths was one of my favorite parts of the book. Demarini After reading the book, I went back to rewatch the movies, and the odd treatment of Arwen in that scene made me ragequit.
First, because a strong character moment is taken away from Frodo for no good reason; second, because it turns Arwen from a dignified and mysterious character into Hollywood Action Girl Template 4.
Somebody joked about "Schrodinger's Elves", but I think their point was well taken. I never made that connection before. I wonder whether Tolkien conceived that story, at least in part, as a protest against the increasingly easy divorce of his times?
I almost wrote "an allegorical protest", but then I remembered this is Tolkien. Does Mandos the Vala "shuffle off" the spirits of Men, or do they leave because that is in their nature?
About the only reason for turning it down would be to share the fate of someone dearer to you than life or death. True, mortals in Middle-earth began looking on mortality as a curse. But surely when they entered Mandos the place they would realize it was in fact a blessing.
It has to be something more than just that. Mortals will, before very long in the grand scheme of things, want to leave their bodies. If their bodies survive too long they will either go crazy or become monsters.
Thus there is a difference between mortal and immortal souls even while alive. ISTM that Arwen's soul must have been something other than mortal until she made her choice, else she would have gone crazy with the desire to leave her body. Arwen was not a Man anymore than she was an Elf. She was a Peredhel. As the App. Good point. It gives a better understanding of Arwen's reluctance to part with life.
Aragorn did 'seek elsewhither' and voluntarily give up his life. Arwen did not. She would have been quite content to live until the end of Arda, if not for Aragorn. Thus death for her was not as much a gift as it would be for a Man. I always thought Arwen was a bit of a wimp to fear death so, when Aragorn was satisfied with so much less life, but now I feel more pity for her.
Aragorn was unusual for a Man. While he did not know exactly what his fate after death would be, he knew it would be greater than that of Elvenkind. His spirit would not be econompassed and bound by Arda in space and time. Morgoth excacerbated this fear and loathing of death and Sauron used it to turn the Numenoreans against the Valar and the Eldar. Arwen did not catch on like Aragorn did, so the parting for her was a bitter thing.
She died in Middle Earth because she did not want to go on without her husband. I don't think she realized what a great future might be waiting for her beyond the Circles of the World. Aragorn's last words to her were precisely this matter, but she was so busted up she did not get it. I doubt whether she ever got it. Well, there is a little difference in the two cases you compare.
Beren and Luthien were both mortal and thus doomed to leave the world at their death to the unknown fate of Men. So for all we know, for Mortals Death might very well be the end and a separation for all times. Of course, there sure is the possibility of their fear dwelling with Eru after Death, but IMHO this is nowhere made explicit. So when Arwen dies as a mortal, this means for him that he still has an indefinite lifetime ahead of him in which to mourn the loss of his child, whereas Beren and Luthien are already dead and have thus already left Arda when the time of Dior's death and thus the final judgement on his fate approaches.
Gunnar -- Democracy is the worst system of government known to man; with the exception of all the others we've seen so far. Well, actually it almsot is. Beren's mortal fea didn't disintegrate. It hung out in Mandos for a time.
Clearly there is a fate for mortal fear beyond Arda. It's a good thing. Leaving the bounds of Arda, indeed, Ea, is a good thing. Then again, they may have had the same outlook as their dad which made him chose mortality. And speaking of going overseas, I've always wondered what ultimately became of the Ringbearers after they got to Valinor.
My guess is that they lived there long enough to recover spiritually from their ordeals, then died and went wherever Eru puts Hobbits, but nowhere does it really say. That and how long do elves have to wait in the Houses of Mandos before being allowed back into the rest of Valinor? Since they're referred to as a type of Man, presumably they share that fate. Michelle Flutist -- In my heart. By my side. Never apart. AP with Pride!
He pretty much says that. And Hobbits, being human, would go where Eru puts Men. Long enough to atone for their sins. The more sins an Elf committed, the longer he stayed in Mandos. It is said that Feanor for example will never get out of Mandos because he won't be finished atoning for his sins before the end of Arda.
Where does it say that? As far as I know, we are never told why Feanor remains in Mandos. Maybe he prefers to stay with his mother and father? The way I see it, Mandos is a place of redemption and self improvement, not atonement. Maybe the reason Feanor is not let out is that he refuses to admit his actions were unjustified. Hobbits are humans, and thus share the same fate as Men.
I think is has a very simple explanation: it is modernistic psuedo-spiritual babble. It jars because it is nothing JRRT would have written or even thought to write. It has no meaning -- except for what it says of the mental state of all those responsible for it being there. PJ could have had a flying saucer or bigfoot appear and wisk Frodo off to Rivendell or Nessie appear and eat the Nazgul and the effect would have been no more jarring.
With rare exceptions: I download on Saturdays. I upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue. True, I don't have any text to back up that assertion. It does seem the most likely reason for Feanor's long stay in Mandos though. No problem. I'm not going to get into two simultaneous arguments on definitions of words. I retract 'atonement' and resubmit; "Long enough to achieve redemption and self-improvement.
Perhaps you should pick up a copy of "Letters". You can usually back up the most unlikely assertions with what's written there. Hi Conrad! You're saying the same thing. There is no extant written indication of how long Feanor would stay in Mandos - with the caveat of the Letters referred to above. In fact the whole thing smacks of vested interests. Feanor offends the Gods by disobeying their edict [with huge provocation] this leads to the Kinslaying [unreasonable Teleri of course] and the betrayal of part of the Host [damn' stragglers anyway] and then he dies by Balrog Whip.
It seems an independent entity should have been drafted in from some other universe to make the call on this one My guess is that he's just too stubborn to ever leave!
Later "guests" of Mandos Luthien? That's not all that improbable, really. Miriel, after all, refused to return when she could, which is one of the original root sources of Feanor's resentment of his half-brethren.
Whether Feanor-the-shade is able to spend time with his mother is an open question. His father, I can see, since Finwe was guilty of nothing in particular, save perhaps too much pride in his son. But Miriel and Feanor have Issues. If I interpret the Silmarillion correctly, even taking the Oath was a sin: "They swore an oath which He was left alone to work out his own destiny.
When he was killed inevitable, sooner or later , he came to Mandos like any other Elf. But he needed more time to learn humility and wisdom to match his other great gifts.
This is all fascinating, but we don't have any idea what might be waiting for them, since it is a fictional story. We are not told what their fate might be, the issue is deliberately left open. In real life there's no such thing as immortality, which is why I'm beginning to find these hair-splitting metaphysical arguments faintly ridiculous.
As you mentioned, there are plenty of people who are not uncomfortable with oblivion. Perhaps this, not the promise of god-like rebirth in Heaven, is the source of Aragorn's strength. Why, what's so great about Mandos? And why is it that the Doom of Mandos has seemingly been extended to all Elves who choose to remain in M-E? Why should a Peredhil not be able to choose immortality and remain in Middle-Earth?
It's all a rather silly and deterministic theology. Presumably if he could leave voluntarily, he'd still have to go pursue his oath. At the very least he'd have to get Earendil's Silmaril back. They had two of the rings of power. If they had to put such a stupid element in the movie, wouldn't they have been the better choices? But then again, why do that at all? Since I haven't seen the movie yet OMG Something like that.
When I saw the movie my initial thought was that she was dying of sorrow. Elves can die because of great sorrow, and her forbidden love could have been the source of that sorrow. That was what I thought, anyway, but I'm not sure if that was meant that way. Originally posted by Almie When I saw the movie my initial thought was that she was dying of sorrow.
Wow, that's actually a pretty good point, never thought og it that way I agree with Sister Golden Hair on this one. They tied Arwen's life force to the ring of power.
In all the seven hells, why??? Did they think Aragorn needed some additional incentive to back the Frodo goes to Mt. Doom ploy? He seemed committed enough to me. Did they think, since they've made Elrond so anti-Aragorn, that he needed some reasoning to take the sword to Aragorn, since in the movie he didn't already have it?
I thought this was unneccessary. Perhaps they wrote themselves into a corner with the changes and felt some explanation was needed.
I had this same question and someone explained it to me much the same way Almie did: If the Ring is not destroyed, then inevitably Sauron will get it. Aragorn will fight to the death, and if Sauron has the Ring, that pretty much means that Aragorn is meat. Arwen would be completely heartbroken about not being with Aragorn and die. It's an indirect thing. However, after this was proposed to me, I watched the movie again. If this was the writers' intention, they should have made it clearer.
It seems to me that because the Ring hasn't been destroyed, Arwen is dying. I seem to recall that while she's laying there, she says something along the lines of "I wish I could have seen him again. Hi folks and HI! I don't post here much, but I'm not new to Tolkien or the PJ movies.
Upon seeing the film the second time this element was not as jarring to me as it was the first time and in fact, even made sense. In the scene where Arwen drops the book and then Elrond comes to her it seemed to me that this is the moment when her choice becomes fully manifest and her body becomes mortal.
She seems to sense a change within herself, which is why she drops the book. Elrond comes and also seems to notice the change in her.
He takes her hands with such concern and comments that they are cold and realizes that indeed his beloved daughter will never sail unto the West--she is bound by the Choice of Luthien.
At the moment she assumes mortality, Arwen's fate becomes truly tied to the Ring in the way that it is for all mortals and that it would not be if she were an Elf.
And if Aragorn, Frodo and the forces of good do not prevail, she will live out whatever might be left of her mortal life in a world consumed by evil.
And this without the hope of ever being reunited with her family in Valinor, or they with her--a future of unimaginable heartbreak for Elrond and her family. And if Aragorn falls, and they are never married, there is an even greater chance that she will die alone and in great torment. Elrond had already had his wife sail West before him because she could not endure the memory of her torment by Orcs in the Redhorn Pass.
It is unbearable to him that Arwen might also suffer such a fate, but never have the opportunity to come to Aman and be made whole once more. Aragorn must succeed. I thought Hugo Weaving did an outstanding job of portraying Elrond.
When he gives the bride away at the end, the expression on his face speaks volumes as they say. Despite the fact that no one knows what happens to Men when they die, if Arwen and Aragorn are married, it strengthens the possibility that theirs is a bond that might persist beyond their passing. Her capacity for estel is My husband however, had not read the books and loved the first two movies so I was curious about his response.
He found Elrond's statement a little disconcerting--but he accepted it. He said, "There is a whole world of information about ME that I don't understand--I just figured that was one of those things.
At the end of the third film, he turned to me with the tears still wet on his cheeks and said he understood why I spent so much time in Middle Earth. He is going to read the books!
He's been asking me all kinds of questions. Add one to the growing list of Tolkien nerds, ah, fans! Sorry for the long post. I'm generally, ah, fulsome, in my responses. Congrats with your husband! SF-Fandom forum, right? Hey maciliel, that's a great explanation. If Arwen is now as mortal as a human, her fate, like the fate of mankind, is tied to the One Ring. Wow, when I saw the title of the question I quickly sketched an answer in my head, but wow, it does not apply at all to the more explicit question!
Note that to an immortal Elf, having only a few decades left to live is essentially the same as telling someone in real life that they have a few days or weeks to live. Add a comment. Active Oldest Votes. Improve this answer. As the appendices say: Elrond's Choice tm to be judged as one of the Firstborn passed to his children only so long as he remained: "to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle Earth.
Yes, true. That is what happened in the book, where Arwen was perfectly alright during the events of the war. After she married Aragorn, she continued to live with him, eventhough Elrond had already left Middle Earth with Frodo and Gandalf, etc. Which is why I say this question does not follow the books. My reasoning is just what Peter Jackson could maybe have been thinking when he added that part in the movie, based on what clues I can glean from the book and movies.
The idea was Jackson's, not Tolkien's, so it may not entirely make sense in-universe. Yorik, another good point you brought up: 'It was the act of remaining after Elrond departed that seals the deal for Arwen'. The idea in the book: it means that anytime she wanted, she could have changed her decision and become immortal again, as long as Elrond had not left Middle Earth.
But in the movie, as shown when Elrond says her hands are cold, she says 'There is no ship now that can bear me hence'. Meaning that she was doomed to mortality by her own choice, eventhough Elrond had not left Middle Earth.
Food for thought.
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